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PollNational League, should we
Pay more to play indoors (if so how much, add comment below)
20%
Play outside
7%
Play half the season indoors & half outdoors
60%
Play and indoor and outdoor seasons
13%
Other, add a comment below
0%
Total votes: 15
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National Leagues teams that do not supply appropriately qualified referees should be...
Submitted by James Hosken on 22 April, 2005 - 13:41
fined with £
24% (59 votes)
fined with points
46% (113 votes)
allowed to carry on breaking the rules
11% (27 votes)
I don't care
7% (17 votes)
other (add a comment to tell us)
12% (30 votes)
Total votes: 246
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penalty for not having a quilifid ref
I try to fufill all parts of the ref thing but work (hard to get out of taks up a lot of time,. courses are not near by and assements arnt to easy to come by ither. I'd like to add we do this for fun! don't we?
How to punish them ?
First of all I find it incredible that 15 people (when this goes up) would have the nerve to even say they don't care. Why don't you really stand up and be counted and name yourselves you useless free loading scum bags.
You are problably the blight of our sport who will happily abuse most any ref who calls anything against your team particularly you, who of course are the centre of the univers, or so you would like to think. Well, wake up, your not, so pack up and spunge off of someone else.
Bere Forest manage something like 18 concecutive Div 1's without a ref. Why weren't they just thrown out and the players named on the team excluded at least another year from any BCU event ?
By docking points you just give them a free ride to kick ass in the lower division. What's the point, who gains from that.
If you fine them, it must be sufficiently high that it's not worth a team turning up or even announcing late that they have no ref.
Clyde
______________________
www.clydespolopage.com
www.clydespolokit.com
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getting ref status
I try to fufill all parts of the ref thing. but work (hard to get out of a lot of)takes up alot time,. courses are not near by and assements arnt to easy to come by either. carrot is better than stick. but it's to easy to condem than to try to help/assit players in doing some thing about it.
Qualified Referees
This is all well and good but I am aiming to become requalified after previously being a referee and the last courses shown, when I click on the refereeing area, are in 2004. How do I get on a course and then get tested. It seems it is getting harder and harder to qualify at the moment with only set courses taking place, what if I can't make the dates (when they get published)? Especially as I play Div 2 and so as far as I can see I have to go on 3 different courses to work my way up, this could take years. Any ideas from those qualified to teach and test other referees?
How did you get on?
Hi,
Did you get on with reffing? Just asking as I was at Div 2 (N) last Saturday and absolutely nobody requested any refereeing assistance, etc. Do you play in Southern leagues? Surely, though, if your playing in Div II this year and have previously been a ref, then you have worked your way up and someone must have been qualified beforehand?
As Andy mentions below about players and ref's you cannot expect to gain Div II status overnight, it takes a lot of time and practice. Getting things wrong, accepting them and moving on are just part of it, and do make you a better ref. in the long run.
Feel free to come along to any of our tournaments, our team is blessed with people who have bothered to make the effort to learn to ref (hopefully to a reasonable standard), and we would all happily help you out. Can't get to Leeds, then how about Matlock on Tuesday nights; I could help you out there.
Alternatively, I have volunteered to ref at the Exel Boat Show in January, why not come along then as most people who are anything in the sport will be on hand? We could all use helpers to, if not always ref, table, line judge, etc. etc.
Lastly, why not go to the ACM to make the point about courses, etc. although I do understand that there's a planned East Midlands course coming up soon.
See, there's lots and lots of opportunities there.
Getting Qualified
Hello Colin,
If you have previously been a referee then you should find it easier to gain re-qualification. I genuinely applaud you efforts in this.
The summer months offer, by some margin, the best opportunity for us refs' to improve our game. Through practice over a weekend tournament it is quite possible to advance your skills considerably. There are several qualified assessors who habitually turn up at these weekends (our team has three for example, Andy below is another) and are more than happy to spend some time watching, advising and assessing if necessary.
Therefore, it really becomes a question of the paperwork angle and here we do need to be reasonably flexible, remembering that those who administer this are volunteers who gain little or no credit for what is one of the more labourous of tasks.
However, your point about dates is valid, but have you tried contacting an assessor to check this personally. I say this as a lot of the dates are fixed on demand and this can heavily influence the geographical spread of courses. Perhaps you should look at the list, see who is close you and give them a buzz? This may promote some activity!
Also, although you may have to be a bit flexible again, it is entirely appropriate to do a bit of travelling during the Winter months to several of the National League tournaments and referee/get yourself assessed here. This I have done in the past and found it helped an awful lot with my reffing; not only do you get to watch more players/situations, etc. but you also gain confidence which helps when you start to deal with higher level and/or more contentious games.
Really, the message here is that if your not happy with the way things are, it is up to you and only you to change it. This is possible, especially if you put yourself about a bit and BE SEEN to be a ref.
I hope this helps
Ivan
All players should learn to ref!
Our best players didn't get that way overnight - it took several years and a lot of hard work combined with a fair degree of natural ability. Why expect it to be any different with referees?
We are short of refs, and even more short of good refs. The only thing we have in abundance is players who don't like playing with bad refs! The fix is not instant and it's a numbers game. Just like playing standard, anyone can get to an OK reffing standard with hard work and practice. Again, just like playing, a percentage of those that learn will have a natural ability that allows them to become really good.
If all the players leant to ref it would share the burden at each tournament meaning each person would have to ref just one game. That's not much to ask! If we took on that approach and teams encouraged all of their players to get qualified and do their bit we would avoid the need to worry about sanctions - most of the team would be qualified and those that weren't would be getting grief from their team mates who were having to fill in on their behalf.
To return to the first paragraph - it takes time to learn to ref - we have to encourage everyone to start now and expect a transition period. So sticks and carrots:
If a team is not attempting to qualify refs to the level they need then I think sticks are appropriate. If a team does not have a qualified ref then everyone on the team should have attended a course and be trying to get qualified - if not dock points. If that demotes a team to the level their refs are qualified at then good - that's appropriate!
If all the members of a team are trying to get qualified there may be a few tournaments that they need to hire a ref for before one of them passes. If a team finds and hires their own ref then it is likely to cost them only expenses - I suspect most qualified refs will be happy to help out teams that are genuinely trying to help themselves.
Andy
Yep
Agree as below.
Pay refs don't fine players
I don't think docking points is the right way forward, I wouldn't like to see teams get relegated etc on the basis of their referees, (or lack of them): it should be on the basis of their polo! I think both Ivan and Pete raise a good point about hiring refs: the best way to encourage quality refeering is not to scare people with the prospect of fines but to encourage them with the prospect of benefits i.e. paying them.
Points, Prizes and Fines
Ah yes, but who is going to pay for all this?
Certainly not me, I've always done at least my bit and have seen and felt the frustration build when teams can't be bothered to supply their own refs.
Let's not forget that providing suitably qualified referees is a condition of entry to the leagues and most "one-off" tournaments. Why should people get away with not doing so????? Cut the problem out rather than manage it!
Should we have non-playing ref's (paid nominal fees) then this in itself is an administrative nightmare and there are already too few people prepared to make the sacrifice and join the committee, leading to those who are there being significantly overworked and consequently undervalued. (I did three years on committee some time ago and left as, even as a junior member, the time was intruding too much elsewhere).
So the simplest system is to dock points. Even if a team has a justifiable excuse, then it should still be their responsibility to sort out an alternative ref, who would, of course, have to be suitably qualified. They could pay him/her but this would be sorted out and the name given to the league organiser at the start of the night/afternoon/tournament. This person would then be responsible for the reffing and could not "sub-contract" out to a lower graded (paranoia creeping in) ref. Cash doesn't work as this needs enforcing; hiring ref's is idealist but won't work as this needs administering and a great deal of goodwill; points gets my vote anyday.
Anyway, off to water my horse
Ivan
I agree (sort of)
I take your point Ivan however if teams start loosing points because of noting having refs then it will make a joke of the leagues which people put time money and effort into running and playing in. Clearly the ideal situation is that everyone has a ref/refs and there is no need for fining money/points, but I suspect that given these extra pressures a lot of people will just drop out altogether which is disappointing. Even still you could be right that the threat of fining points might scare/inspire people to get reffing.
Hmmmm
It would indeed be unfortunate if anybody decided to give up over something that should be "run of the mill".
I also agree that the carrot is far more productive than the stick.
Time for thinking caps again?????
Points make prizes
The points idea is the most workable I can see at present, and being a ref for many years (having stood in a large number of times as well), I will support any initiative that encourages more people to adhere to one of the most fundamental team rules for attending any tournament.
However, I also get peed off when having to play and ref in conjunction, but having been a league organiser, also know there's really no way around this at present, a situation made more difficult by the recent reduction in the number of teams playing within a league.
The most appealing idea that was banded around a while ago was to have non-playing ref's at tournaments. At that time I believe the idea was to have anyone suitably qualified; paid to be there on the night. This would be expensive and there probably not enough decent G1's for the top league (who could remain unbiased!). Why not, then , make it a condition of league entry that if your' team is not playing in, for example, T1 of the season, your ref turns up and is paid expenses plus a small amount for their trouble. Personally, I would prefer this, not only as my team has 4 qualifies G2's and above and we could share the burdon, but it would mean a playing night could be spent playing and being with my teammates/friends, which is the main reason I do the sport anyway.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings, just a thought?????
The quick fix points deduction thing would defo work!
Cheerio
Ivan
How do you enforce this ?
I am all in favour of fining, however how do you enforce this ?
Unless you religously check every players identity at the start of a tournament with a photocard (bear in mind some BCU cards are plastic and do not have a photo) then you could claim to be any person to avoid a fine for the team.
Better that all teams register a ref. or two at the start of the season which is checked by someone centrally and then the teams are encouraged to be responsible. If they cannot provide a ref. for that tournament then let them state it in advance and get the other teams refs. to assist. Unless this takes the p*&* with some teams never reffing, an occassional missing ref. should not be a problem.
If any team cannot truly provide a ref. for the season then they should hire one! There has to be a market there . . . . .